Wyze Cams - What MATTER(s)

[Sam_Bam]

This is likely to get me in trouble. I am not trying to start something. And I am not complaining. I am just trying to start a conversation about something before it becomes an issue for us.

I try to listen to the YT videos of several Smart Home advisors. One that I find is right on the money almost every time is Brian of Automate Your Life. One of his most recent videos. Briefly states that the Wyze cameras will not support the MATTER standard. I have not heard if this is a decision that Wyze made or the hardware/firmware simply will not work.

I don’t yet understand how this will affect me for the 12+ Wyze V2/V3 cameras that I use. But it looks like the future for IoT items is MATTER is the future.

Someone mentioned there’s an expensive license to use MATTER and some companies may not be able to pay those fees. Could be accurate.

I don’t think Wyze would whither and die on the vine. So, I would predict Wyze will soon or relatively soon announce a Wyze Cam V4. I hope so. I like their products. I want to keep using them. But I am cautious, because its my money I am spending.

Welcome a discussion. And I am not critical of Wyze. I do want the best for the company.

[Mod Note]: Topic moved to this category for better visibility and consistency in grouping similar topics.

[carverofchoice]

I guarantee you’re not getting in any trouble for this kind of thread. This kind of discussion is very welcome, and beneficial IMO, especially when it’s an honest discussion like this.

I like Brian too.

@Sam_Bam

Wyze cameras will not support the MATTER standard

This is partially a misunderstanding about Matter…I’ll explain in a moment. First, if you haven’t done so yet, read this thread, starting here:

SmartThings Integration

We have been part of the Matter initiative since March 2021 and we never made it a secret.

And read all the comments made by WyzeFrederik through the rest of that thread so that you have an understanding of where Wyze is at on the Matter initiative. He is Wyze’s POC on the Matter initiative.

@Sam_Bam

there’s an expensive license to use MATTER

This is true. It is a proprietary standard with an opensource repository, but the specification is licensed by the CSA so you have to pay to play. Become a Member | The Future of IOT - CSA-IOT
Pay to Play Cost Summary:

Some relevant quotes from WyzeFrederik about Matter are as follows:

@Frederik

We know that bulbs, plugs and switch have the right chip to run Matter but there are still some uncertainty around the size of the library for Matter.

@Frederik

The reality of Matter is that it is still a moving target and we are not ready to talk about our plans with Matter. We are definitely interested and are looking at the impact on the current products, futures products and more importantly the current ecosystem that we have.
Also be sure that despite having 200 companies in Matter, you can be sure that not all of them will adopt Matter. I think all the traditional players will and we want to be one of them but timing is also going to be important.

Regarding Cameras with Matter:

@Frederik

Cameras are not included in Matter for the moment but there is no reason why they can’t be in the future but right now, I’m not aware of any work in that area.

This echos what Brian from automate your life said about Matter Version 1.0:

3:27 the initial device types that will be
3:29 released with version 1.0 of matter this
3:32 means that devices you have in your home
3:34 today like a smart home camera or a
3:36 smart home video doorbell are not slated
3:39 to work with matter come day one and i
3:42 don’t have any knowledge to give you on
3:44 a release date for version two and i
3:46 don’t know what other device types are
3:48 even planned for that the industry is so
3:51 focused on version one that there’s
3:53 nothing out there for version two it
3:55 doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist

So it’s not really that “WYZE CAMS” Aren’t supported, but at the moment, NO CAMS are supported in version 1.

It’s possible Wyze cams could be in the future, but don’t count on it for the V2’s since they have such limited resources. Maybe the V3’s (depending on what is developed by the alliance…nobody knows yet because it doesn’t exist for cams) and probably future cams should support it though. Here is some relevant discussion on that:

@Frederik

There is not a Matter chip as Matter is a purely software based solution but some of the chips are optimized for Matter or in the case of ESP32 have the SDK compiled and tested as part of the Matter development process.
The only requirement that Matter is putting in place is that the device should be supporting IPv6 and (optionally) Bluetooth for provisioning. So there are a lot of devices that are meeting that criteria. But since Matter is still under development, we have no idea the memory size that will be required, the amount of compute that will be required too, which makes predicting which existing devices to be compatible near impossible.
So specifically on the camera v3, I’m pretty confident that we have the amount of compute. I’m not about the amount of flash memory that we have and I don’t know how much work it will take to get Matter working with the ingenic T31X and last I don’t know how much it will take to make sure that we are not breaking any of the integration that we have with the Wyze ecosystem and the support for WebRTC. We are just too early to answer that.

@Frederik

The TL;DR is that right now, we are actively looking at Matter. I’m the POC for Matter for Wyze. I’m running several (raspPi) prototypes to understand the maturity and the complexity and develop the expertise around Matter. I’ve briefed the upper management on the business challenges and technical opportunities around Matter. I’ve also started to develop a plan for the adoption of Matter but we have not committed the development time for the moment on Matter because we have a serious backlog of features for the current products for the coming months and to support the launch of the products that have already been committed.

Basically, we probably have to wait for Matter to develop a little further first. Perhaps we’ll get lucky and @Frederik will give an update, but I am guessing he doesn’t have much to add to what he’s already said until later this year after the version 1 launches and we see how that goes. As for cameras, I doubt he can say anything about that until the Alliance develops the possibility for cameras to work with Matter. Since that doesn’t exist with 1.0, it’s almost pointless to discuss how it relates to cams at this point since nobody has a clue yet.

I hope that helps answer some questions at least I am very interested in and following up on this too.

[Sam_Bam]

@carverofchoice, Carver, In least amount of words and do not adequately express, - thank you very much for the help with my initial and with an explanation. Hope, nuff said. Acknowledge you invested a lot of energy into that explanation too.

[carverofchoice]

Aww, thanks, this what us volunteers are here for to help with, and I appreciate the gratitude. It is good to know when people appreciate it.

[Seapup]

@Sam_Bam

This is likely to get me in trouble. I am not trying to start something. And I am not complaining. I am just trying to start a conversation about something before it becomes an issue for us.

Great topic and conversation.

I moved your topic to the Integration category as your subject’s focus is Matter integration.

[Sam_Bam]

Thank you. For what its worth, it was a coin toss between Cams and Integration. Cams won, because I was thinking I wasn’t talking about all their products, just cams.

[Seapup]

As Matter gets closer to a mature state, more users will share the same concerns as you bring to this topic. Again, good stuff!

[carverofchoice]

Heck, it’s already your personal highest rated topic:

Or at least the one with the most likes, almost double your previous record holder.

Don’t be surprised if that number goes up dramatically by the end of the year After Matter 1.0 is officially launched and this subject is on lots of people’s minds like Seapup said. You made a good post. Far from “getting in trouble.”

[Sam_Bam]

Me? You’se talking to me? (De Niro, - Taxi) Oh gosh, shucks. Not little old me.

I didn’t even know you folks kept track of stuff like that.

[Datbitch]

You been Dubbed

[carverofchoice]

Wyze’s VP of Product just posted a lot of New Info related to Matter in the latest Wyze AMA. You can read a summary here:

AMA with Wyze VP of Product, Steve McIrvin - 6/15/2022 1:00 PM Pacific

I’m Wyze VP of Product Steve McIrvin - AMA! - Summary You may easily view every answer he gave without all the extra noise by visiting his profile link directly: https://www.reddit.com/user/WyzeSteve/ [Note, in the following summary, font changes such as bold, or text in brackets (such as changing “it” to what “it” is meant to stand for) are my alterations to add clarity or to help TL;DR people who want to scan responses fast. Each quote has the source link in the question for those who wish to…

Here are some of the best excerpts that apply here:

@carverofchoice

MATTER INITIATIVE UPDATES

Great question! Matter is super strategic for us. Our first product in the Matter ecosystem will be out in just a few months, but I can’t reveal specifics yet .

The biggest obstacle for us, as you might have guessed, is that there’s really no definition yet for cameras in the Matter guidelines. It’s not one of the two dozen or so categories that they have defined yet. There is a working group that is just now being formed, so we intend to participate in that. Cameras are obviously our core strength, but we do feel that the other smart home products like locks, plugs and bulbs will benefit from supporting Matter in the future. It’s such an emerging space that it’s hard to comment on specifics, but we did join the CSA a year ago and will continue to invest in [Matter].

Does this mean, can you confirm that current devices will not support Matter with a software/firmware update?

[Current devices supporting Matter is] unlikely due to the requirements of running both the Wyze firmware stack and a Matter-compatible firmware image. We’ve been down several paths on this strategy and the most likely scenario is that we’ll need to introduce new products with higher resource limits (especially flash memory and RAM) to support Matter.

Any plans to release the API? This would be a huge help for more integrations with IFTTT or other home automation systems and tools!

Our shift in [the API/inter-connectivity] area will be toward Matter and figuring out the best local-control experience that integrates all the diverse parts of our ecosystem. A lot of the use cases that you would normally send over to IFTTT or Home Assistant, etc., will be covered by the new local ecosystem.

[Very excited that he is basically announcing a move toward local control/access here]

What do you see as the future of the smart home (beyond just Matter)? What do you think will be the next breakthroughs in the industry?

This will get me in trouble, but I want a smart home where my phone and app are never required. We track our user engagement by looking at the app usage metrics that Facebook popularized, like Daily/Weekly/Monthly Active Users. But for a lot of devices, I think that using an app means that your home isn’t as smart as it should be. Take a thermostat, for example–if you’re in the app, that means that the current temperature isn’t perfect and you’re trying to change it. If we can continue to refine our AI and rules engine, the goal is that the system learns how YOU define perfect comfort (or security, or access, or lighting, etc.) and you never have to pull up the Wyze app at all!

@carverofchoice

What concrete improvements do you personally believe you have contributed to Wyze since you joined the company? What are your primary goals and efforts for the near future (preferably something other than finance/profit related)?

Wow, this is super deep! I would love to grab a scotch with you some time and talk about my 1.5 years at Wyze so far. But as a simple summary, my contribution has been to raise the bar on product quality and focus us back on core smart home and cameras. I’ve killed a lot of product ideas that were pushing us too far away from that cohesive strategy of cameras, comfort and control. My primary upcoming goals are all related to some AMAZING cameras we have slated in the next 6-9 months, all of which were kicked off right after I started (it’s been hugely helpful to see the entire innovation cycle of these products instead of coming in toward the end like I did for many others). I’ve also been the loudest voice of support our Matter expert, Frederik, who has made a compelling case for the shift away from cloud-only control paradigms.

[The above response alone automatically makes him one of my favorite Wyze employees now!]

There are also several other comments which are indirectly talking about his strategies, many of which will be involving things like Matter in some way, so I highly recommend reviewing everything he said.

But in general, he confirmed that MATTER is “super strategic” for Wyze that they will “continue to invest in MATTER” and they will be participating in the group developing the camera category for MATTER, as well as confirming that their first MATTER supported device will be released in just a few months. Also, it sound like it is unlikely that current devices will have the resource minimums (flash memory and RAM) to qualify for MATTER.

[sonicpepsi]

As a user that is going through the Insteon debacle, I’m going to state that I’m not sure how much additional items I’m willing to invest in a closed loop system again. I’ve been doing this since the days of X10 and Radio Shack so I’ve seen a few come and go. Insteon bit the hardest and the new model they are forcing is not sitting well with me.
Just some insights that I’m sure we have all thought about but putting it here for not only Wyze to see but others that follow these types of items.

[lsrivers]

I’m trying to weave my way through this info. Bottom line seems to be, If you want all your devices integrated through the MATTER system, you will need to buy all new Wyze products?

[IEatBeans]

Yes, that’s most likely what will happen, although for some devices you may just need a new hub. Like it seems like the matter integration would go into the sense or WCO hubs, or VDBpro chime

[lsrivers]

That’s too bad. When that time comes, I will be seriously re-evaluating if I want to stay in the Wyze ecosystem. If upgrading systems requires complete new purchases, this may not be a company I believe in as far as their strategic vision.

[IEatBeans]

I think this is gunna be the case for many many devices. The $25 hardware in the cam cannot support the new stuff needed for matter. Many companies devices are gunna have the bare minimum in them, and I’m sure they are gunna need to be replaced as well. Not saying that’s the case for everyone, but probably most.

[Sam_Bam]

Let’s not get to far ahead and board the obsolete product train yet. Chances are good that the Wyze cameras will continue to work for many years. I think the days of a $19.95-ish camera are gone. And our expectations for what a camera will do have grown too. Would be nice to have a built-in RSTP feature like some cheap cameras are offering, right? Well, I believe, we can depend on the next gen Wyze camera to have enough internal memory to run regular, support RSTP and be MATTER compliant all at the same time.

Other companies, other manufacturers are also going to go through the growing pains. In the meantime, our already purchased cameras are still working, correct?

[CatHome]

@carverofchoice

[Current devices supporting Matter is] unlikely due to the requirements of running both the Wyze firmware stack and a Matter-compatible firmware image. We’ve been down several paths on this strategy and the most likely scenario is that we’ll need to introduce new products with higher resource limits (especially flash memory and RAM) to support Matter.

Looks like it might be a good reason to hold off on any further purchases until the Matter-verse is a bit more clear, as well as Wyze’s direction with current and future products.

I was all in with the V3 Cams due to RTSP firmware being made available, and that’s been abandoned… I’m not holding my breath for a “Matter” solution in the near future (especially when Camera’s are not a part of Matter v1.0.)

Once Wyze has a new camera on the market that speaks “Matter”… and 3rd party software starts appearing that is “Matter” compliant (aka… ONVIF / RTSP)… then we can all live in harmonious happiness, and I’ll be able to view all of my New V4 or V5 Cams on any Matter compliant device!..

I’ll just need to pay for a Cam Matter Pro Plus Premium subscription to make it all work

Then again, no further purchases of anything Wyze for me until Landscape View for Tablets is a real thing and not just listed on the Wishful thinking list.

SJ

[rab1849]

Yeah, I think I’m in the same boat about getting more cameras. The plan was to invest in several Cam Outdoor V.2s, but I’d rather not sink $300+ right before a major upgrade (MATTER) that will allow me to turn on any lightbulb/plug/lock in a different ecosystem. I’m willing to pay a bit more for the Cam V.3 Pro type features, such as edge-based person/package detection. I’ve become a strong believer in Wyze’s camera product development since their Starlight night vision blew me away. None of the other cameras come close to that night image quality.

I’m a little wary of Wyze’s non-camera type products since I got burned on their plugs with their atrocious range and frequent outages (Even when right next to the router), and also their original door contacts which died after their original battery was replaced, along with a few other devices.