I’m having a little trouble. Wyze won’t let me take Cam Unlimited off any of the existing cameras, and so I tried to set up a new one, and I can connect to the camera itself, but it keeps falling to connect to the internet, I even tried a 2.4GHz Only SSID, and it still rejected it. Not sure what the problem is. I will try resetting to factory settings then maybe try flashing the firmware to the latest firmware after that. We’ll see if my babies let me do it right now. I kind of have 2 sick toddlers and I caught whatever they did, so my plan is to do it right now, but might get delayed.
Edit:
A factory reset fixed it to be able to connect, but Wyze FORCED me to use Cam Plus. I even canceled out of the “continue” button to not agree to add the camera to Cam Unlimited, but it did it anyway. Hold on a minute. I’ll delete it off my main account and load it on a secondary account that doesn’t have Cam Plus at all.
I loaded my secondary account on a tablet but App3.0 beta keeps crashing during setup. Will try to do it on a phone.
Dang, Alright, I confirmed it. No local AI detection without a subscription. I could’ve sworn they said the V4 was supposed to allow person detection for non-subscribers just like the V3Pro, but it’s not doing that for me, and I can’t find a source of any employee saying that. I do know that it has local/edge AI detection, but I guess they still restricted it to Cam Plus.
I think they’re making a HUGE mistake by locking all the local AI detections behind a paywall when the new standard is for companies to offer free AI detections on many of their cameras. Wyze was one of the first medium to large companies to ever offer free local person detection detection, and as soon as they did so, suddenly there were tons of others who went and developed and started to offer it. I understand it’s kind of Apple’s fault that they lost that for a while when Apple bought out XNOR and reged on the previous contract, but now that they have built their own local AI again, it’s crazy to me that they are paywalling it. I honestly think this is one of their biggest mistakes. They are driving a large portion of their original market share toward companies like Tapo, Reolink, and Eufy. I really think they need to wake up and stop losing so much market share needlessly. At minimum they should offer person detection on all the cameras that support local/edge person detection. I realize that the confidence interval on an edge model is lower than the confidence on the cloud model, but that’s fine. It works reasonably well on the V3Pro. Then they also need to support RTSP. If they at least did those 2 things they’d be fine, but it’s crazy to me that they are stubbornly holding back on both of those for some reason.
The V4 is still a pretty nice camera, particularly for someone who just needs to be able to review playback when needed. But I can still feel dumbfounded that they are making decisions like this. I was fairly harsh on them for allowing person detections on the V3Pro without person notifications, so hopefully I didn’t contribute in any small way to them deciding not to even allow either on this one…but both of these will go on my personal list of some of Wyze’s biggest mistakes (IMO). Thankfully, they do a pretty awesome job overall though. It’s okay for them to disagree with my viewpoint on some things.
Wyze used to be the only choice for Starlight sensor at a budget. However, with Tapo using Starlight sensor now in their cameras, Wyze nearly lost all competitive advantage. No cooldown notifications with motion and AI person / pet / vehicle detection without subscription. Tapo even supports RTSP and ONVIF so it’s a no brainer to pick them if you starting out completely new. Their AI Vehicle detection is actually detecting movement unlike Wyze’s so if you always have a car on the driveway then you don’t have to disable it.
Reolink’s Lumus camera also competes with Wyze cameras (no subscription required for AI detection and notification), but no Starlight sensor. I won’t include Eufy cameras as their pricing is significantly more expensive than the other competitors.
The only thing Wyze that can compete with others is their subscription pricing mainly for cloud footage (which can be stolen currently lol) $99 for unlimited cameras is pretty good. Wyze’s Cam Pan V3 is also in a unique position with its PTZ function, small footprint, outdoor rated and cheap. Wyze’s Floodlight are extremely good value compared to other competitors.
Personally, I think they are in a rather difficult spot. They are probably pumping out these cameras probably at thin margins and need to depend on subscription business model to survive. The other companies like Reolink and Eufy sell expensive camera models so they don’t need to paywall the important features. TP-Link is just a different beast as it is a huge networking company.
In terms of wired power camera with Starllight sensor then it’s:
C120, C320WS, C325WB (ColorPro sensor supposed to be better than Starlight, but significantly more expensive), C225, C520WS
C120 may be good for window mount option, but you may want to 3D print a mount or buy after market which I don’t know if there is any right now. Some cameras are rated indoor only like the C225. C520WS is huge so you may not like it even though it has pan and tilt function. C325WB is too expensive.
Always buy from Amazon first and test thoroughly if you like it before diving in. All camera systems will have some sort of limitation so you will need to know if you can live with that.
I just purchased and setup a TAPO (TP-Link) C520WS for $59 on Amazon. It’s not really more expensive based on the feature set. It has full Pan & Tilt, IR+Spotlights, 2K QHD 4MP, RSTP for DVR, 2-way Audio, Siren, Motion and AI Person, Vehicle, Pet, Tamper Detection, etc. It also has an IP66 rating and both WiFi and Wired Ethernet connections which was relevant in this case.
I can’t speak on its WiFi strength or stability because I hooked it up using wired Ethernet for reliability since its located 3000 miles away and WiFi, especially when using repeaters, can be problematic no matter what manufacturer’s camera you use. In this scenario it’s mounted outside on a roof corner overhang at the front door entrance and penetration to the attic space for power was required so adding an Ethernet cable was not an issue.
TAPO doesn’t have magnetic or 1/4“ tripod mount options and uses a DC Transformer Barrel Connector for power but since this was a traditional outside install it was irrelevant for this application. It’s been up & running continuously for a few weeks now with no issues.
For a Secure and High Reliability install I always prefer a wired connection. An adversary can easily jam or intercept WiFi but wired Ethernet requires physical access to the cable or hacked access to the network core routing components.
I don’t doubt that wireless with repeaters would be a bit problematic, that would be a lot of repeaters. But 3000 miles of Ethernet cable presents a problem too I would think!
I trust your testing. Thank you for taking the time to look into this and validate my own experience (and my own disappointment ).
@WyzeMattseemed to say that in another topic on a couple of occasions. I asked if it was true that free person detection was done directly on Cam v4 and this was the response:
I followed that up by asking about notifications with on-device person detection on Cam v4, and he wrote this:
His answers are terse, though, and leave a lot to be desired, which is why I’ve requested some clarification, to no avail (as of the time of this writing).
It’s entirely possible that I misinterpreted @WyzeMatt’s responses—and I have no problem conceding that—but even reading them in context I don’t think that my understanding is unreasonable, and I’d still really like to see some official clarification from Wyze on this, though I’m dubious at this point that it’ll ever actually happen.
I agree completely, and I’d go a step further and say that they’re making huge mistakes with their marketing/messaging about features (and which features require an additional ongoing cost of the user). The inconsistency of the message is more than a little maddening.
That's one of the things that I really don't understand at all: Why are they sinking all of this upfront cost into devices that they can sell with this technology already built into it only to keep it crippled unless the buyer pays an ongoing additional fee?
* Edge AI is only available on Wyze Cam v3 Pro, Wyze Cam v4, and Wyze Cam Floodlight Pro, and is powered by an on-board chip. A subscription to Cam Plus is required on Wyze Cam v4 and Wyze Cam Floodlight Pro to access the full feature list of Edge AI.
Where would I find the “full feature list of Edge AI”? My inference from this statement is that at least some of the features of Edge AI are available on Cam v4 without a Cam Plus subscription. Does that actually include Person Detection?
(Apparently not.)
Further down in the article is this, which I’ll break up and address in sections:
Why isn’t Edge AI free on all devices, for all detections?
Edge AI takes a lot of manpower and research to implement on each compatible device. While no longer a recurring cost to produce, the upfront cost of developing a device with Edge AI is high.
I don’t doubt the up-front cost to develop and implement this, and I certainly wouldn’t expect a feature “powered by an on-board chip” to be magically available on older devices, but Wyze is saying that this is already in a camera that I have. That development is done, the cost is past/paid, and the product has been purchased. I just want to be able to use what’s been sold to me on this device.
And once developed and launched, Edge-powered devices still require ongoing maintenance, accuracy improvement, and optimization.
This same thing could be said of non-Edge-powered devices, otherwise Wyze wouldn’t be issuing firmware updates for any previously-released products. I’m not sure I understand the point they’re trying to make here, because this ongoing cost isn’t specific to Edge-powered devices. This seems to be a specious argument, and I feel like I’m being generous by saying so.
Making Edge AI free on all devices, even if possible, would increase costs tremendously for our users - no bueno.
I get that. I understand that it’s not possible even for Wyze Wizards to retrofit this technology on all Cam products. Expecting that would be ludicrous. What else seems ridiculous to me is spending “a lot of manpower and research” cost upfront just to sell an apparently crippled product—a product with a marketed feature built into the device that’s presumably already there for me to use—and then withholding it for the ransom of recurring subscriptions.
It is, and I like the units I just bought, but if it hadn’t been for the recent sale I would’ve just gone with Cam OGs (which were only $1 less than the Cam v4s during the recent sale).
Incidentally, I did pick up a Tapo C120 on sale at the same time I bought the Wyze Cam v4s.
I’ve had positive experiences with other TP-Link products in the past—I really like their Powerline adapters, and I bought their Kasa Smart switches (and have recommended them since) because Wyze didn’t have an equivalent product available at the time—so when I was camera shopping and saw that this model received a PCMag Editors’ Choice and was on sale at a price comparable to the Cam v4’s, I decided to try one. I’ve played with it for just a couple of days, and these are some of my impressions.
What I like about it:
It has free (without a subscription) Person Detection, plus others: generic Motion Detection (duh), Pet Detection, Vehicle Detection, Line-Crossing Detection. So far I’ve set it up in an area where only motion, person, and pet detection are likely to be triggered, and these seem to work reliably. It also includes several distinct types of Sound Detection (Baby Crying, Glass Break, Dog Barks, Cat Meows), but I haven’t attempted to test those.
During setup the app tells you that the free trial of cloud services cancels automatically after 30 days. You don’t have to enable the trial during setup (I didn’t), and you have the option to do it later, but even then it’s not a free trial that automatically converts to a paid subscription: They just cancel it for you at the end of the trial and you can decide later if you actually want to enroll and pay.
RTSP is included and easy to set up. I was able to consume a live stream in VLC without any difficulty at all.
It’s also easy to set a static IP address on the camera within the app. I’m comfortable doing stuff like that on my router, but if I’m already configuring other stuff on the camera, it’s really cool to be able to configure this setting right there in the app.
It has a longer power cable than Wyze Cam v4 (Tapo’s 3 m [~10 ft.] USB-C vs. Wyze’s 6 ft. Micro-USB).
What I don’t like about it:
I prefer the form factor of Wyze’s cameras in general (though the Tapo C120 kind of reminds me of Pixar’s Luxo Jr., which is kinda cool, I guess.)
There’s only a single color (white) option.
The basic notifications don’t include thumbnail images. (The app refers to “Rich Notifications” as part of the Tapo Cloud Care trial and subscription, so I imagine those would include images, but I haven’t taken the time to explore this.)
I can’t stream video in the Google Home app, which gives the “This video stream can’t be viewed here” message. I can, however, use the voice Assistant to stream it to my Google TV, a Chromecast, and a Home Hub.
I haven’t yet figured out how (or if it’s possible) to filter events by type (e.g., person). I believe this might be a feature available with a Cloud Care subscription or trial. The AI-tagged motion events are easily differentiated from generic motion events in the timeline by color, though, so that’s pretty cool and kind of makes up for the lack of free filter.
I can’t speak to the antenna quality. I have the Tapo C120 set up in a place where I previously had a Wyze Cam OG, and the overall experience is pretty comparable in terms of video stream load time and apparent signal quality (though the Tapo definitely wins with the additional AI detections), including the color night vision with the Starlight sensor.
I haven’t looked into mounts, but given its cylindrical form factor I could imagine just measuring its diameter with calipers and throwing something together in Tinkercad (where I designed the mount for my Video Doorbell v2) if I wanted a semi-permanent window mount. Right now I have it hanging from a window shade bracket looking outward and it’s adequate, but a mount would likely help reduce glare/reflections inside the window.
I’m glad I did. I don’t have any personal experience with the Cam v3, and I like my new Cam v4s, but I’m really impressed with the additional features available at base in the C120.
That may be the case for your C520WS, but that’s not a true blanket statement about all Tapo camera models. Right now the magnetic base of my C120 is what’s holding it to the window shade bracket so it can look outside. Tapo includes a metal disk and mounting adhesive in the package (as does Wyze), but their mounting disk has two screw holes and seems like it could be more secure.
I think this is % true, and given my recent experience I’m more likely to buy and recommend more Tapo options in the future. I still really like Wyze, and I was genuinely pleased to learn during the Multi-Camera Timeline View video that they became cash-flow positive earlier this year. I imagine it’s difficult to run a company with the intention of disrupting an existing market, but if they don’t make the decision to keep pushing competitive features as a standard (Person Detection without a subscription![1]) offering in their core product, then companies like TP-Link are going to eat Wyze’s lunch.
Very well written! I seriously hope some Wyze employees read this. You know I have very similar thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to organize all of that.
I actually liked reading your review of the Tapo. I will probably get one of those myself at some point just for comparison purposes. I’m surprised I hadn’t heard before many of the things you pointed out, such as about them not giving thumbnail notifications without a subscription. That surprised me and is not a common practice in the industry. I had not heard they had the google home app streaming problem too, or that event sorting is not intuitive. I had heard most of the positives before.
Incidently, back when Wyze did their 14-day trials of Cam Plus, they worked the same way, they would cancel themselves automatically at the end of the trial. For MOST of the time you could also refuse the trial, and you could usually add it later (by setting up the camera from scratch again), but too many people were abusing that to try to keep getting cam plus free forever. When they allowed the free trial to switch to other cameras, people would keep setting up 1 camera to renew the license, then move it to their primary camera, etc. So eventually Wyze locked the trial to the same camera, and other things to prevent the manipulations…but the 14 day trials always canceled themselves. The only ones that didn’t cancel themselves are the ones that were Cam plus included for “X months” (1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 12 months)…those would auto-renew because they were technically not a “trial” as much as they were a “waiver” or credit for that period, and that confused and upset a lot of people due to the misunderstanding.
Yeah, maybe an employee can clarify about the local/edge Person detection stuff. I’m disappointed to find out that wasn’t included and only gets turned on in conjunction with a subscription when that is unnecessary and doesn’t really add costs to Wyze to allow the local detections. They have allowed included local AI detections on a few models though, but usually just the Pro line. I think that is where they are going to keep it (included with Pro, but not flagship). I think they should at least include Person Detection on flagship models and it’s okay if other things are pro or subscription.
#AMA2ASK - Why paywall local/edge Person detection on cameras like the V4?
(Asked 10/25/24)
Thanks! I wanted to take the time to put some thought into it and include my experiences with a competing product since I had that and since that came up as part of the discussion here before I even mentioned it.
I don’t expect that to happen, but then I got a on an unrelated post from a Wyze Team member a few days ago, so….
Absolutely! Thank you for taking the time to read it!
Oh, good. I’m glad that was useful, too. I think it’s a nifty device that packs a lot of useful features in a package comparable to what Wyze is doing, and this isn’t even what I would consider to be TP-Link Tapo’s flagship product, but I think it beats the out of the Wyze Cam v4 on several key features.
I don’t have any experience with any of the Cam Plus trials or subscriptions. I was just surprised to read that—unlike a lot of “free” trials out there—the description for Tapo Cloud Care said that it would automatically cancel at the end of the trial term instead of converting to a paid subscription that a user would have to opt out of. That makes it so much easier for the customer and would make me more likely to try it.
That just seems like a boneheaded decision for at least two reasons:
They’re apparently investing the up-front cost to develop Edge AI and put it into the device…only to sell it crippled without a subscription? If it requires a subscription to activate Edge AI with Person Detection, then what’s the point of having that technology in the camera in the first place?
If I’m paying for Wyze Cloud AI with a subscription, then why wouldn’t I just use those features rather than the built-in Edge AI? What’s the point of even including Edge AI in that case? Why spend that up-front development cost on something that isn’t likely to be used even when it’s enabled (by subscription!) because its ability is superseded by Cloud AI?
Apparently at least one Wyze employee agrees with you on that point:
Oh, I can answer this to some degree. We had some Wyze employees confirm that TECHNICALLY almost every Wyze camera has some degree of local/edge AI on them now (I think it was like 2.5yrs ago…but might’ve been 1.5yrs ago). The problem is that SOME of them have a low confidence interval because they are limited on how much of the model they can fit on the camera. So the confidence interval isn’t good enough to allow local AI detections on many of the cams by themselves, HOWEVER, what the lower confidence interval model can still do is quickly identify more likely detections and make that a priority for the cloud AI to analyze first, thus making notifications much FASTER than just waiting for the cloud to analyze every frame in order and then report when it finds something.
So in this case, let’s take the V3Pro cam which has a full local edge model loaded on it and can function without the cloud aI. It has a good enough model loaded into it with enough resources that it’s confidence interval is high enough to do it all by itself. Then when you add cam plus to that, it will still do the person detection locally and notify you WAY FASTER about a person being detected (than most other camera models) , but then it sends that footage to the cloud for verification with an even higher confidence interval. If the cloud disagrees with the local model’s conclusion, the cloud version overrules it because it is more accurate. Thus, when you search events later, it wouldn’t include the false detection in those results because the cloud AI confirmed there was no person. Or the same with a false negative…the cloud AI may find that the smaller local/edge model missed reporting a person when it should have and now that event will be labeled person when the edge AI may have skipped it. Similarly, if the Edge AI isn’t quite sure yet, it can ask the cloud AI to make that analysis a priority and see if it is a person without waiting for the cloud to check everything else in sequential order first. Together, they are more accurate and faster than alone.
So, building local AI into the camera, even if it is locked behind a paywall is still beneficial because when the local and cloud models both work together, they are extremely effective and way faster overall. so there is still definitely a point, and technically every camera has a local AI model on it, but most of the older devices don’t have a full local model with a high enough confidence interval to even support working by themselves. But it’s my understanding based on the public messaging that at least the V3Pro, FLPro, and V4 DO have sufficient capabilities to do this, and if it does have a sufficient AI model on it, it should be allowed to function that way.
So the cloud AI doesn’t replace the local AI model, they work together to be way better.
).
less than the Cam v4s during the recent sale).
What I like about it:
What I don’t like about it:
% true, and given my recent experience I’m more likely to buy and recommend more Tapo options in the future. I still really like Wyze, and I was genuinely pleased to learn during the Multi-Camera Timeline View video that they became cash-flow positive earlier this year. I imagine it’s difficult to run a company with the intention of disrupting an existing market, but if they don’t make the decision to keep pushing competitive features as a standard (Person Detection without a subscription!
I seriously hope some Wyze employees read this. You know I have very similar thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to organize all of that.
on an unrelated post
out of the Wyze Cam v4 on several key features.