Bold Claims - but does Wyze Really deliver?

Cameras
76

“If the hardware goes to V2, you have to go to V2” - this just isn’t true. Multiple hardware configurations can run on the same firmware in many cases. I have actually been informed that the firmware for v1 & v2 is very similar. So in this case, it is a hardware replacement, more so than your presentation that this is a firmware replacement.

No one here was talking about versions of software until you chimed in.

You might expect hardware and software to be obsolete in a hurry, but most consumers don’t.

77

First off, iPhone 8 was released prior to iPhone X and secondly, iPhone 8 & X are parallel releases and not one replaces the other. You are comparing apples and oranges. I didn’t say that releasing two versions in a year was the issue, but rather quick succession replacement of hardware. Note, you can’t buy a V1 anymore. You actually can’t buy a WyzeCam right now. You can preorder, but not purchase.

Ask yourself. If V1 isn’t defective, why would a company pull their only income stream off the market? It’s a logical question and one that all the blind followers of tech fail to ask. It is a terrible thing to happen to a business, but no one seems to care. V1 is a problem, and by their own admission, Wyze is scrambling to fix V1.

I postulate here that the reason they need to fix V1 is what the alternative is. Replace all V1 hardware with V2. It is expensive, but short of fixing the connectivity and other glitches with V1, that is where we are headed. You can all jump on me for saying this, but pay attention to what is happening.

A company with soaring popularity, great press and a hot new product pulls their only product off the market and in quick succession start preselling a second version of the “same” product. Name me one other instance where this has happened. Not a new version rolls out and old stocks are sold off. That isn’t what is happening here. You can’t buy a V1 new anymore. You can ONLY preorder V2 which is delayed.

Before someone tries to defend with “they ran out of V1s” argument, pay attention to the FAQ where they say that V1s will be replaced with V1s. You can’t do that if you don’t have stock. My guess is that they have a fair stock and plan to use it to replace V1s if and ONLY if they can fix the issues that have plagued the device.

78

Hi Mary, Does Wyze pay you extra for reading pthalodezin’s comments? Ask for a pay rise. If you are reading this, you deserve it.

79

You can think that all you want, but it’s really not. It more like Ford-Pinto and Mercury Bobcat

80

The way I see it is they are trying to be honest about it. They have a new hardware with more feature, they want to keep the same amazing price. As you said, they have V1 stock and they could have sold V1 for $20 and V1+ (V2) at some $$ more. But look at the honesty, they want the consumers to spend same amount with more feature even at the risk of losing revenue on the existing stock. I like that. This just increased my confidence in this company a notch.

81

Wow, that actually made me laugh. How naive. No business is going to cut off a revenue stream during a delay of a new release. What if there is a new defect found tomorrow in the V2? No incoming money to cover the cost. It is a bad business decision unless you have to do it. Why would you have to do it?? Well, if you continued to sell a defective product after discovering the defect, you could be the target for class action. Now if you pulled that product, made motions to fix it while announcing the release of a different version, one with new hardware, you are in the clear… for now. If that fix doesn’t come through, you may have to bite that bullet and replace all the old with the new.

For a startup, this is serious. Now this is all just conjecture, but tell me does what you actually put forward make sense from a business standpoint or just a justify your position standpoint? I don’t want Wyze to fail and truly want them to come out of this, but I am a realist. This doesn’t look good on the surface (at least if you are willing to look at what is actually happening).

82

You keep using illogical arguments to support your position which ultimately is to cover your disappointment with your technology being usurped.

Whatever the reason for moving to V2 cameras (manufacturer no longer can supply, the manufacturer can supply a more capable product for the same money, Wyze just felt like pi**ing pthalodezin off) the reality is it is done. No one necessarily likes their technology getting old or obsolete. I do make a stink when an expensive product is completely abandoned immediately after release.

In this case, Wyze is not abandoning the V1 camera. They are trying to find solutions where some have communication issues. They are moving forward. It would be a poor business decision to not offer a V2 camera if a more capable piece of hardware was available at the same price. Not choosing the newer hardware, could be financial suicide. Other companies first to market, seen as slow to react to changes in available updates, too many possibilities to name.

83

Feel sorry for you that you have lost faith in humanity and good business practices. You are seeing all this from your damaged lens.

“you may have to bite that bullet and replace all the old with the new.”

If that was true, lot of them would be happy with a new Prius few years back

“if you continued to sell a defective product after discovering the defect,”

Lot of companies do that like Volkswagen.

You just proved my point that Wyze is trying to do the right thing by discontinuing V1 and moving on to V2 while still supporting V1.

 

84

zarthan, fair points, but I am looking at a few more factors here. The camera listed above likely has similar or identical production and development costs as the WyzeCam. By their own admission, Wyze Labs is taking a different market position. Low profit margins in favor of sales volume. That is by its own nature a riskier position. Why, because you have less liquid capital in the instance of chronic or widespread defects and failures.

I look at is this way. If Company A and Company B are both selling a product that for all intents and purposes is identical, just with proprietary firmware and app, then both companies have the same or nearly the same monetary inputs. Let’s say that cost of product is $10 per unit. What follows is a gross simplification of the economics, but maybe it paints the picture of what I am getting at.

If Company A sells 1000 units for $60 each with free shipping and Company B with a different market position, more hype and a better presence sells 2000 units for $20 each + $5 shipping, Company A will have $45,000 in capital from their sale. Company B will willonly have $20,000. Now overtime, Company B will likely be more profitable due to market trends due to exposure, word of mouth and their position as the less expensive of the two options.

But here’s where the risk plays in. If Company A suffers a 20% (200 units) failure rate and must replace all of those items at their own cost, including shipping, they will still be left with $42,000 in capital (6.7% hit to the bottom line). If Company B suffers that same 20% (400 units) failure rate, their capital is reduced to $14,000 in capital (30% hit to capital).

These are not actual numbers, just an exercise in how this plays out if Wyze has pulled V1 due to unreparable failures. When you are in a low per unit profit margin position, your only sustainable path is volume sales. If something stands in the way of those volume sales, you are in a bad place.

I don’t want Wyze to fail. I like my cameras and am working with tech support to fix them (this weekend’s big time suck for me), but I am keeping a clear head about what I am seeing in the decisions being made. I can’t make sense out of these business decisions unless I look at what could be going wrong and then the pieces all seem to come together.

85

“Lot of companies do that like Volkswagen.”

Volkswagen suffered a massive legal defeat, had to replace thousands of cars and pay thousands of dollars in fines. They broke the laws governing trust in this country. Is that what you are saying Wyze has done?

I am not saying that Wyze has done the wrong thing by pulling V1, I have actually stated that this was the right move, although it does not get them out of the woods from a cost perspective. If V1 can be fixed, then everyone is happy, but if not, then Wyze could take a serious hit. They would actually be on the line to replace all V1s, not just the defective ones (although in the end, it is likely to be a percentage between 100% and the percentage discovered defective).

86

Since the constructive criticism is mostly on why we release V2 in less than 6 months of releasing V1 ? and how does it reflect our mission and value ? I feel the need to write something to share our view and gave some insights into our decision making process.

Before we get into the topic, we have to admit that our product experience could/should be better. From better connectivity, to more intuitive UI, to more features, ( even just simply less bugs ), we have a long way to go. We are working on these, regardless of V1 or V2.

Now, why do we release V2 in less than 6 months of V1 ? To answer that, let’s first look at the major difference between V1 and V2.

  1. Motion Tagging - this is powered by V2 CPU, whereas V1 CPU does not support.
  2. Improved CMOS sensor - both V1 and V2 are 1080p, but V2 image quality is better.
  3. Higher Sound Quality - V2 sound is louder than V1 sound.
  4. Matt Finish (V2 ) vs Glossy Finish (V1)
The first question we need to answer is - whether V1 was a good product ? We believe it is a very good product. We know it is not perfect ( APP issues, or speaker is not loud enough ), but it sells very well, and have good reviews. For the entire life of V1, probably half of time it was out of stock due to popular demand.

If you check the major difference between V1 and V2, you can tell that releasing V2 has nothing to do with replacing a “premature” V1.

  1. Motion tagging was never claimed for V1,
  2. V1 CMOS sensor meets the advertised spec
  3. V1 speaker volume is lower than ideal. We realized this from feedback from customers. It has nothing to do with false advertising.
  4. Matt finish is just some appearance preference.
Now the question becomes, if V1 is good, why don't you keep selling V1 ? This question gets into the core of our vision and value.

After releasing V1, from customer feedback, we know that customer likes our crisp image, but dislikes the low speaker sound. As a product company, we constantly watching user feedbacks and explores different options, whether software or hardware, to improve our product.

So when we explored to V2 CPU/CMOS platform, and see the improvement it can make, we got serious about releasing V2. At that point, there are a few options.

  1. Continue sells V1 without V2
  2. Introduce V2 as "Pro" version of V1, and sells at a higher price
  3. Introduce V2 and discontinue V1
Option 1 is the safest option for us. The biggest problem with V1 at that point was inventory. Our job would be to ensure enough V1 is produced, we should be good for 9-12 months. But that is not our DNA. We always want to make our product better.

Option 2 seems to be a reasonable choice. V2 is better, therefore it should sell for more. And it seems fair to the V1 customers, who are our early supporters. This all seem reasonable except that it goes against our value belief. One of our internal core values is to “be friends with customer”. When we price our product ( e.g. V1 ) we asked ourself how much we would sell this product to our close friends. The answer is BOM cost + margin to cover the operating expenses. That’s how we priced V1. We treat our customers as our close friends. ( our true life friends pays for the same $19.99, although they might be able to save on shipping by picking up from us ). We just do not want to artificially increase V2 price. We won’t do that to a friend, therefore we won’t do that to our customer. So option 2 is out of the question because it is against our core value. ( in fact, V2 COST is a little higher than V1, we challenged ourself to become more efficient to absorb the increased cost ).

That’s how we landed on option 3. We created campaign to give early access to existing users, as a way of showing our gratitude.

Unfortunately, V2 had dust particle issue ( those who pre-ordered before 3/1 have received email about this issue). We held over 60K units of V1 in our Seattle warehouse. It took us several weeks to improve the production process and we are finally able to produce V2 units that meets our quality standard. This is how serious we take quality. Mistake on our end, but we believe being transparent and honest will earn customers to be our friends.

I am happy to see constructive criticism and friends defending us. I just want to remind us all to be calm and objective. It is an interesting topic and I am happy to share more insight. Feel free to ask.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

87

thank you. While I don’t entirely agree with your decision, I can understand the perspective. I also feel that this statement after the fact is an educational moment. You sound like you have a level head on your shoulders and your approach to business is refreshing, but I wonder if radical transparency might be a good addition to your aspirations as a company. Had this explanation accompanied the V2 release, delays and V1 discontinuance, perhaps my hefty dose of criticism would have been uneccessry. Not to be too snarky, but is that how you treat your friends?

Only one statement struck me as out of place.

“Option 2 seems to be a reasonable choice. V2 is better, therefore it should sell for more. And it seems fair to the V1 customers, who are our early supporters.”

So are you saying that you are choosing to be unfair to V1 customers in favor of a lower price on V2? Would you sell a product to your closest friends just weeks before releasing a better product? I think that’s a fair question. You painted the picture and I like the sentiment, but it does begin to fall apart at the edges. Wouldn’t it be more likely that you would swap out V1s for V2s for your closest friends?

I am not your friend though. I am a consumer who made a choice to back your company by buying 6 of these even though I knew that it wasn’t everything I wanted. I made it work. I bought 6 WeMo Mini Smart Outlets, 6 class 10 Micro-SD cards and drilled a hole in one of the bases so that I could get a stable mount on a wall with an air handling unit on the other side (vibrations meet magnet… camera repeatedly dangling from cable). I bought a few extra long cables. All of this was worth it, assuming that I wasn’t buying equipment that would be rendered obsolete 5 weeks later. Why would I think that. You release in October and were having astounding success. Great writeups on every site. Amazon was placing you in a great position and your price and attitude toward tech was solid. I question all of that with this decision though.

Did none of these issues (connectivity, app usability, image quality, etc) come up during testing? While you say that you didn’t release V1 prematurely, the early release of V2 would suggest that this has at least a grain of truth. I will continue to use my V1s (and the V2 when I get it), but I won’t be a vocal supporter of your company like I am for other tech startups I have supported. I can’t until I understand that this hiccup was an anomaly and not a symptom of poor management and inexperienced leadership. I know that the support of one person (or lack thereof) means little in the face of the support that you do have, but I hope that you can at least take what I have put forward here to heart, understand that this isn’t crackpot rambling, but a real picture that you painted and others will have certainly seen it in the same light as I did, even if they did not stand up and write to your forums.

88

WyzeR, keep doing what you are doing. We covered all you said one way or another. Thanks for the great product.

I thought pthalodezin was sitting on his high horse but from his statements like " I can’t until I understand that this hiccup was an anomaly and not a symptom of poor management and inexperienced leadership."

It look like he is sitting on the bullshit mountain.

And about “like I am for other tech startups I have supported.” , I would really like to see any positive comment you may have posted anywhere without complaining about anything.

Optimists see: A glass half full.

Pessimists see: A glass half empty.

Chronic complainer pthalodezin see: A glass that is slightly chipped holding water that isn’t cold enough, probably because it’s tap water when I asked for bottled water and wait, there’s a smudge on the rim, too, which means the glass wasn’t cleaned properly and now I’ll probably end up with some kind of virus. Why do these things always happen to me?!

89

Say it with flowers…

 

Yours, Roomba.

darth-vader-bagpipes-unicycle-500x333.jpg

90

Ad hominem attacks and complete ignorance of what a realist is. This was never about me. It was about the company and had you read what WyzeR wrote, you would understand that he takes this seriously and this wasn’t some grand vindication of the blind supporters.

What you should ask yourself (but likely won’t), is how serious must a matter be to get the one of the founders of a company, in the midst of a busy product support & product release time period, to comment on an open public forum. If what I was saying was off base, trolling or otherwise unecessary, they could have just deleted the thread, but instead, he actually took the time to shed light on what is actually happening.

Of course the fanboys are going to think this is some type of smackdown, but if you read what was written it is not.

Just keep thinking that blind support of a product is the only thing that makes it better. It isn’t. Pushing startups to improve not only products but operations, production methods, customer relations, etc, is just as important.

91

You can pile on the words to make any argument you like but in the end, you are just disappointed that there is new hardware and you have the old. Nothing here is anything other than you are disappointed you have the old. Your flailing only supports that stand.

Had you had first arrived here next week with V2 cameras shipping you would have said thank you very much, and taken your 6 V2 Wyze cameras. You would not have questioned the business ethics or decisions made. Or whether to be fair, you should have taken some of the remaining V1 cameras at the same price so that others with V1 cameras could update.

If there were new features Wyze was proposing for the new V2 cameras that could not be made available to V1 cameras, you would have cried foul if they chose to delay those features for 6 months. Your position has only been a self-serving one. Your “constructive criticism” as you like to call it, is nothing more than a little boy throwing a temper tantrum.

Having been a business owner for the past 25 years, your views are rather distorted. Think it is easy. Give it a try.

92

zarthan, you know nothing of me. You are spouting pure conjecture. Neither you nor I can say what would happen if I or someone with the same stance as me “arrived” next week (funny that you think V2s are going to be delivered next week) so you are just spinning a tale that means nothing. Had you never been here at all, I wouldn’t have to deal with you incessant fallacy riddled arguments. See how stupid an argument like that is. You are here. I am here. I do have an opinion about the business practices of Wyze. You have your opinion. I have both accepted and even complimented your opinions and stances. Although I lose myself at moments, I have shown both maturity and composure in my recent posts. You cannot say the same. You are still trying to shout down opposition.

I too have been a business owner for nearly 20 years. My views are not distorted. I am a realist. I see things for what they are. Certainly, not having inside information can paint a varied picture, but I choose to see things in my way. It does not make them false. Until 100% of information is available, there is no way to know for certain. When the facts come to light, and one set of postulations are found to be right and another wrong, it does not mean that the exercise of postulating what may be happening worthless.

Had it turned out that (or turns out) that Wyze has done as I postulated above, I wouldn’t be sitting here doing the I told you so in public. In my own head maybe, but let’s be clear, V1 issues are still unresolved and there is still question (at least for me) whether or not there is a sustainable path forward for this company. You are a fanboy, so I know you are onboard, but it’s the thousands of people who haven’t bought a Wyze yet or the fallout if V1 remains glitchy and faulty that will decide of this company has viable long term success.

93

I don’t think you are getting what I am saying. I am no “fanboy” but just stating the fact about the product and the company while all your points are conjunctures. There should be no question about sustainability path of this company from you because you have already invested in V2. If you had any doubt then you would not have pre-ordered.

94

not entirely sure what a conjuncture is, but okay. You statements however are not based in fact but in conjecture. Just as I am, you are taking evidence that you can see and postulating your own set of opinions and predictions. That is conjecture.

Since there is no way to know how I would have reacted had I come after V2 was released, you are using conjecture and your opinions of me to formulate and speculate.

Also hilarious is that you (and so many others) have accused me of being overly negative and simply being disappointed about V2, which I am, but then again, I have held since my first post that I do like the product. Now why would I say what I have said and still purchase V2? Well on top of thinking that this product gives me the closest thing to the product I am seeking, my investment in V1 has been solidified by Wyze’s behavior. I am in some ways trapped now. It would be difficult to sell V1s now as they are tarnished by the connectivity and quality issues, not to mention the fact that V2s are the same cost.

I am not willing to take a loss on a product I have only had installed for 1 month +. I realized I am at least one camera short in covering the spaces I need to see and therefore, I need an extra camera. I could sell of my Wyze’s and start over with a new product, but that is financially stupid. Or, I could put some faith that the people at Wyze will get their acts together and make progress on both V1 and V2. Admittedly, I do this understanding that there is a risk and I could end up with a bunch of little cubes that don’t do anything but cause me headaches.

Your statement “If you had any doubt then you would not have pre-ordered.” is just untrue. I did a fair and balance risk/reward assessment and sticking with Wyze is my best option at this point. Still have my doubts, but they are currently outweighed.

95

You did mention you were a business so hmmm… looks like now I am getting the clear picture. You bought a lot of V1 hoping to turn it into a profit selling locally to unknown customers and now you are pissed that there is a newer version and you are left with holding a hot potato stock. That makes sense.

 

How many are you holding? Tell the truth.