This is not secure

[Frederik]

It does.

And we are working on a few initiatives to continue boosting the security, while enabling a few new capabilities.
We fully understand that the bigger our brand, the more a target we are becoming and we are acting in relation to that.
One of the thing that is also a limiting factor is the number of changes that you can make at a time. In our case, some of our improvements and changes are so fundamental that any other attempt to build would be going for the trash as soon as the improvements would hit production.

[peepeep]

PROVISIONAL SUMMARY

With respect to cloud cameras:

Privacy | Security | Trust | Money

@angus.black

As long as they are recording outside your own network there will always be a possible security breach.

@alexey.vasilyev

I would vote for not using cloud cameras inside your home. Use it outdoors

@Frederik

Doubling, tripling, quadrupling the price of the camera will not change the privacy level of the camera. This is not a cost matter. It is a resource and a pace at which we can make the changes happened.

@Frederik

We do NOT need to sell customer data to stay in business.

Now we could just do it to make an extra buck. Except that we believe in protecting our customers. We deeply believe that your data is YOUR data and not ours to sell. We put privacy in front of everything. We see what is happening around us. We see how Facebook is getting beaten down on privacy concerns and so rightfully. It would be stupid for us to follow the same path.

@Frederik

Bottom line, there is no tangible proof that I can put in front of you. Just my words and explanation with a couple of facts that you can verify. But at the end it is a question of trust. You either believe me and choose to continue to use our products and services or you estimate that we are not doing the right thing. This is up to you and you have to be at peace with your decision, if putting a cam in a place where you think it will compromise your privacy, then don’t! That’s also why we are developing other form of sensors (like a contact sensor or a motion sensor).

[peepeep]

Do you trust Wyze to work exhaustively toward world-class cloud cam privacy/security?

• Yes
• No

[gemniii]

Do you trust Wyze to work exhaustively toward world-class cloud cam privacy/security?
NO!!!
I don’t TRUST “Wyze” at all (well maybe a little bit).
Most of the people responding on here seem to have LITTLE OR NO concept of security.
ANYTHING transferred over WiFi is hackable.
Put more “work” into an eyeball.
A camera my 94 yr old MIL can stick on the outside wall that is battery/solar powered and pipes to her TV.
/edit - perhaps I was a little too harsh in my NO, but to work exhaustively toward world-class cloud cam privacy/security seems like a dedication of resources.

[peepeep]

@Frederik

We put privacy in front of everything.

In your estimation, given Wyze’s company size, how much of a “person” must they dedicate to fulfill an exhaustive commitment?

[peepeep]

I’m willing to trust, willing to bet Wyze will back up their claims.

Funny, I didn’t immediately have a solid answer. Set it aside until this afternoon when it settled in the affirmative.

[todwatts]

Most of the people responding on here seem to have LITTLE OR NO concept of security.

Gemniii, you said your “no” was a bit harsh … but then you go on to pretty much malign “most” of the people in the WYZE community.

My car, my wife’s car, our cell phones, our t.v.'s, TIVO’s, our smart lights, our iRobot Roombas, my laptop, our iPads, my iWatch, our Online banking, Acurite Hub, multiple Sonos speakers and soundbars, Nest Hello, Google Home, Western Digital MyCloud, Sump Pump wifi alarm, and yes, my WYZE cameras all broadcast over wifi and most on the internet.

I would be willing to be that all of us here on the WYZE community forum understand everything you are saying … and yes, we all know that any wifi/internet device can be hacked.

Please don’t insult our intelligence by saying we don’t understand hacking and security.

Having said all this … I think it’s a personal choice as to how “risk” a person is willing to accept … and yes, how much “faith” we have in the manufacturer and programmers of a wifi/internet device we install in our homes.

Of any wifi/internet device I’ve installed and “accepted” into my home, I can only think of ONE(1) … I repeat, ONE(1) … manufacturer which has time after time shown such concern for its customers … and that’s WYZE.

I firmly believe that WYZE is constantly looking to improve the security of its devices and software … and is really concerned at every single report here on the forum, or in an incident report, or on a phone call or a chat, about every single problem and concern of WYZE cam users.

And I’ll bet that 99% of the folks here on the forum feel and understand the same … that WYZE truly has our best interests at heart.

[ember1205]

While there are definitely many here that DO understand hacking and security, there are almost certainly a much higher percentage that do NOT truly understand it at more than a cursory level.

To that end… I would be less concerned about your Roomba being attached to WiFi than I would about the fact that it’s uploading a virtual ‘map’ of your house to the cloud. Hack THAT, and you have a complete floorplan of your house to use when breaking into it at night.

[gemniii]

The question I was responding to"
Do you trust Wyze to work exhaustively toward world-class cloud cam privacy/security?
I’ve a background in Army fielded computer systems where often a Top Secret or higher was needed.
It takes a LOT of resources to make computers secure. The best methods involve surrounding them with armed guards,
There have been many posts about people fearing their baby-cam stream will be stolen, I can understand their concern, But there is a big tradeoff between building a world-class cloud cam privacy/security system and selling one with a profit margin that allows the company to continue to sell them at such low prices.
As WyzeFrederick put it "Last point! I swear it is! Doubling, tripling, quadrupling the price of the camera will not change the privacy level of the camera. This is not a cost matter. It is a resource and a pace at which we can make the changes happened. "

It is a tradeoff, and just like everything else we have to choose. I hope Wyze continues the way they have been going.

They seem to take security as a high priority, along with many other priorities.

[peepeep]

Companies generally soft-pedal security risks and exaggerate their efforts to protect their customers from exposure and harm. If people were fully informed, the argument goes, their caution in buying (versus urgency/impulse) would have a negative impact on the bottom line.

Consumers are better off being dumb and happy. We’re actually promoting a higher quality of life for them when we steer them away from stark reality. As Colonel Jessep said, “You can’t handle the truth!” We will handle it for you, keep you at a safe distance from that purposeless anxiety.

You get our miraculous product and we make a “reasonable” (if not tidier) profit monetizing things you wouldn’t try to hide even if you could. Alexa, cue patriotic songs and chants. Syri, monitor response. Cortana, you aren’t aging well - perhaps you should consider a career change. -Composite exec

Collectively, as a herd, we are already pwned. Now, here “I” am, stringy little maverick, compromised by the herd’s indiscriminate embrace of… EVERYTHING. "Oh, look, “I say, “I take all the precautions, I’m good.” But if I want to remain fluidly social, YOU compromise ME when we interact (at my 'secure” home, via email & otherwise.)

And those vaqueros, social, societal, governmental, are not gentle. Think spurs, bridles and bits, branding, hogtying and vaccination chutes. It’s good to be beef. Ain’t it?

Sure.

[peepeep]

A few items in support:

• I’ve told my extended family, “Please do not share sensitive personal information about me in email. Email is like a postcard: transparent in transit to whomever is involved in the relay. Would you write that on a postcard?” They look at me blankly, deaf to my pleas. As long as the consequences are not immediately apparent there are none.

• Mail older than 6 months stored in a common cloud account is accessible to authorities without a warrant. Does anyone care? It sure is convenient to be able to search through years of online purchase transactions (for instance) from anywhere on any device. So, actually, no, most don’t care, even when informed.

• If you were alive and tech sentient twenty years ago you remember when the vision of cloud computing was rolled out. A significant segment of society then still cared about owning and storing their own data locally, so insouciance took a generation to fully develop.

• Contemporaneously, device Unique ID (UID) caused an outrage when it was discovered Intel had furtively etched their chips with 'em. Now we’re just happy they’re etching our chips and not our dental work.

Please correct, refute, or add other instances if the spirit moves ya. -peep

[alexey.vasilyev]

There was recently discovered a serious vulnerability CVE-2019-11220 with P2P cameras powered by a competitive iLnkP2P company (nothing to do with with TUTK P2P used by Wyze Cam). It is possible to access camera remotely just knowing it’s UID. At least a couple million iLnkP2P cameras are affected.
More info is available via https://hacked.camera/

[ember1205]

Actually, this was not recently discovered, only recently publicly published and discussed.

[peepeep]

Alexa, forget what I told you to remember.
Sorry, I don’t know that.

Privacy Experts, Senators Demand Investigation of Amazon’s Child Data...

Remember Feature Test - Echo Dot Kids Edition

[tiadog666]

The question of security of information and its cost is very much dependent upon the actual value of that information.

Personally I doubt very much that masked intruders will hack into my wyze cams to assess the value and ease of availability of my assets in my home.

Similarly if little Johnnie or Jennie want to hack in to see me walking to the bathroom I don’t much care either.

I have a ring doorbell as a deterrent and for convenience. Similarly wyze for a little bit more security and peace of mind.

Do I worry about someone spying on me without clothes on ? No, not at all.

It’s an interesting discussion and nothing more.

[peepeep]

Just out of curiousity, did you read the whole TL;DR thread?

[tiadog666]

No, where is it ?

[Solardave]

Spend a hundred bucks and plug Firewalla into your router. You’ll see every device and if/when it tried to connect somewhere, it will ask you if it’s ok. I see my Wyze traffic - it’s pointed at aws in Oregon 90% of the time and random aws access points, almost always in the us the rest of the time. I’ve had 3 hits to aws node in Canada.
There’s more than your money’s worth in security with this product, by orders of magnitude - remember, your not paying monthly for all that was storage and housekeeping.
And always remember, if your not paying for the product, you are the product and either accept or decline that privacy trade off.

[peepeep]

Oh, I mean did you read this whole long thread. TL;DR (too long; didn’t read.)

[peepeep]

Good tips.

I think I’m mourning the fact that in about ten years it will be literally impossible to go “off the grid.” An extinction event of the liberty sort.